Flat Earth 'MAP' IS JUST AN AZIMUTHAL PROJECTION. FLAT EARTH DEBUNKED.

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Flat Earth 'MAP' IS JUST AN AZIMUTHAL PROJECTION. FLAT EARTH DEBUNKED.

Cal
Flat Earth 'MAP' IS JUST AN AZIMUTHAL PROJECTION. FLAT EARTH DEBUNKED.
ka rol

Original thread from Free Speech and Respect forum

Ka rol,

Please allow me to introduce myself. My username is Cal, and I am both a concave earther and a flat earther. Yes, they do exist and the only other one that I know of was born over one hundred years ago and died before I was born.

As a fellow concave earther I am sure that you have seen the value this video of Spaceman’s (Flat Earth 'MAP' IS JUST AN AZIMUTHAL PROJECTION. FLAT EARTH DEBUNKED) which you have mirrored on your site. It does indeed demolish the flat earth disk concept, and I praised BigRoundEarth (now Spaceman) for doing so. Spaceman has had his hour of glory, and I do hope that he gets the credit he deserves for upsetting the flat earthers’ applecart. This is something that I myself have been trying to do for the last year and a half. However, there is part of the story that he is not sharing with everyone.

The rest of the story is what I would like to tell, if I may do so on your site because Spaceman has tried to conceal it by deleting his first video and suppressing my comments. As I cannot post any comments on his video page without him deleting them, I am doing so here because I suspect that you are more a man of character than he is. My reason for suspecting this is because you have arrived at the knowledge/truth that the earth is concave. This tells me that you are indeed a real truth seeker.

Here is what happened. BigRoundEarth (now Spaceman) first posted a video entitled ‘Flat Earth Map’ to his channel on December 10th, 2015. Immediately below the video was the challenge: “Not one flat earther has a clue what their own map is and not one of them can answer the questions asked....not one of them!” Perhaps now that he is famous, and that I have called him out on this, he will repost this video? Others could do it perhaps but that would infringe on Spaceman’s copyright.

So I did what any male would do, I took him up on his challenge! But alas Spaceman has since deleted the video, my comments, and supposedly all the evidence. However, Spaceman cannot deny that this is true because I reposted it all on the Free Speech and Respect Forum (fsr.boards.net) and everything is time stamped! By the way, feel free to join this flat earth discussion forum.

In this video BigRoundEarth (now Spaceman) issued a challenge to any flat earther to try to answer these five questions about the Alexander Gleason Azimuthal Equidistant Map:
1. How is it made?
2. How is it used?
3. What is its purpose?
4. Who uses it?
5. Where is it used?

Free Speech and Respect Forum
Cal’s posts on “Flat Earth Map” video
Interaction with BigRoundEarth (now Spaceman)
fsr.boards.net/post/3997 (Dec. 10, 2015 at 6:58 pm)
fsr.boards.net/post/4008 (Dec. 11, 2015 at 9:19 am)
fsr.boards.net/post/4015 (Dec. 11, 2015 at 1:09 pm)
fsr.boards.net/post/4099 (Dec. 13, 2015 at 1:06 pm)
fsr.boards.net/post/4103 (Dec. 13, 2015 at 2:06 pm)

Here is how our exchange went:

Spaceman commented on a video on YouTube.
Shared publicly - Dec 10, 2015
Not one flat earther has a clue what their own map is and not one of them can answer the questions asked....not one of them!

Cal Piso
Dec 10, 2015
+BigRoundEarth

1. How is it made?
"A point on the globe is chosen to be special in the sense that mapped distances and azimuths from that point to any other point will be correct. That point, (φ₁, λ₀), will project to the center of a circular projection, with φ₁ referring to latitude and λ₀ referring to longitude. All points along a given azimuth will project along a straight line from the center, and the angle θ that line subtends from the vertical is the azimuth angle."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_equidistant_projection

2. How is it used?
"It is useful for showing airline distances from center point of projection and for seismic and radio work. In the case of radio, this projection allows for directional antenna aiming, especially in the case of HF communications. An operator can point the antenna, usually by an electric rotator, simply locating the target in the map and rotating the antenna to the angle indicated by the map. The map should be centered as nearly as possible to the actual antenna location." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_equidistant_projection

(1) Azimuthal. "Having a constant distance/scale from the point of tangency. Thus if a harbor or airport is selected as the point of tangency, the great-circle course, distance, and track from that point to any other point are quickly and accurately determined."
(2) Communication. "The path of an incoming signal is at once made apparent if the direction of arrival has been determined, the direction to train the antenna can be determined easily."
(3) Navigation/Star Finder. "The projection is also used for polar charts and for star finder."

3. What is its purpose?
(1) To determine Latitude and Longitude. "By bringing either of the indicator arms to any given point, the latitude and longitude of the said point may at once be determined without future computation."
(2) To determine the time of day. "In order to ascertain the time of day or night, in any part of the world... You have now got the absolute corresponding difference of time..."
www.google.ca/patents/US497917

4. Who uses it? This projection is used by the USGS..."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_equidistant_projection

5. Where is it used? Anywhere.
"Celestial Navigation is the art and science of navigating by the stars, sun, moon, and planets, and is one of the oldest of human arts. With the rise of radio and electronic means of finding location - especially with the increasingly popular GPS, based on satellite transmissions that can tell us our latitude and longitude within feet - knowledge of celestial navigation has experienced a precipitous decline."
www.globmaritime.com/forum/Marine-Navigation/21-why-celestial-navigation

Spaceman
Dec 10, 2015
+Cal Piso Nice copy and paste job...but you at least proved you can look something up. I was hoping for a more informal explanation but your answers are correct, how could they not be...they are not yours but from official sources...the big question is...does this prove to you (if you are a flat earther, which I do not know) that the map flat earthers use does not prove the earth flat. I know a map does not prove shape one way or the other, but it should prove that flat earthers have hijacked something they do not even understand.

And another question is...do you understand what you copied...since it is not in your words or any layman terms I wonder if you actually understand the map.

Cal Piso
Dec 10, 2015
+BigRoundEarth
You are right about the Flat Earth Community in general. Yes, they take the Azimuthal Equidistant map as flat earth gospel. They are typically ignorant of true geodesy and geomatics. And your assertion that they have hijacked something that they do not understand is absolutely correct. Alexander Strahan Gleason was a Civil Engineer, as am I.

Your question: "the big question is... does this prove to you... that the map flat earthers use does not prove the earth flat. I know a map does not prove shape one way or the other..." Absolutely, this map does not prove that the earth is flat. As you have noted, it just shows that anyone who uses it (the FE community in general) does not understand geodesy, and simply shows their ignorance by their blind use of it.

IMHO by and large the flat earth community is unwilling and sadly, perhaps unable to define their terms. And given the conspiratorial nature of the movement, I don't think we will see a rational explanation of the shape of the earth widely promulgated any time soon.

However, a variation on your question could be "does this map prove to me that the earth is not flat." And here I would have to answer that question in the negative. But again we must define our terms. I will say this, that the earth is flat, yes, but it is not a disk.

And here is my challenge to you. (1) What is the true shape of the earth? (2) How can the earth be considered flat and yet have spherical surface distances? (3) Who was the founder of this concept?
[Note: The answers are given at the bottom]

Spaceman
Dec 10, 2015
+Cal Piso I was with you and about to compliment your answer until you said ... I will say this, that the earth is flat, yes, but it is not a disk. So I am not sure who you are anymore.

1) Oblate Spheroid. 2) It cannot. 3) Which concept?

Cal Piso
Dec 10, 2015
+BigRoundEarth
You are not sure who I am anymore?
1) Oblate Spheroid. The earth has similar characteristics to an oblate spheroid, but no this is not the right answer.
2) It can. Your incredulity shows that you do not understand what is going on.
3) Which concept? Again, your answer shows that you do not understand geodesy and by implication, cosmology.

Rose Mary
Dec 10, 2015
+BigRoundEarth Why don't you then?

Spaceman
Dec 10, 2015
+Cal Piso
1) yes it is the right answer and you are wrong
2) nice trick question...the earth is not considered flat under any circumstances...it is always a sphere...can I consider a small portion flat for certain purposes? Yes. Such as the footprint of a building. Or can nautical miles be use at the same time as statute miles...yes...can airspeed be compared to ground speed yes. Other then that it was obviously a trick question in which you hoped to trap me.
3) How is it that you asking me if I understand a concept without telling me the concept gives you the power to make ridiculous assertions about my knowledge...you are fucked on this one!

So let us recap...you copied and pasted all your answers...not a one was from your mouth...so how do I know you even understand them...I do not! Next you ask vague questions in order to use them against me. Third you claim to be an engineer...I now highly doubt that...you are talking to an engineer and it is pretty easy to tell the bullshitters from the real deal...I do not think you are the real deal!

Spaceman
Dec 10, 2015
+Rose Mary Why do I not what?

Cal Piso
Dec 11, 2015
+BigRoundEarth
If you want to have a rational discussion, let's do it offline. You or anyone else may email me at ariuspiso@gmail.com.

Spaceman
Dec 11, 2015
+Cal Piso I think you are full of shit, copied answers, questions which were intended to trick me and which you got wrong anyway, your claim to be a civil engineer but yet displayed the arrogance of a kid just out of high school, using terms that a civil engineer would not normally use to sound smart, instead of proving your answers to your own questions you want an off page debate. But the worst one was asking me who the founder of a concept was without defining the concept and then acting like I am stupid because I did not answer a question that was very badly asked and could never be answered. Grow up...you have a point then make it...but I think you are just another full of shit flattard.

========

As you will notice, I stopped responding to BigRoundEarth (now Spaceman) on December 10th, because he was not interested in discussing things rationally. He merely showed his true character. The more I interact with people the truth of this Ancient Prayer shines forth:

From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,

O God of truth, deliver us.
-- Ancient Prayer


Spaceman, passed through all three of these of these steps as do most people who aren’t really looking for the truth. Firstly, his arrogance showed through in that he didn’t think I could teach him anything because he knew it all. Secondly, he showed his laziness by not checking out what I presented to him, being rather content with his half-truth that the earth is a globe. And thirdly, his cowardice showed itself by deleting any evidence that he had even been shown the truth.

So, yes. One flat earther accepted and responded to his challenge. That was all it took, one who knew the truth. I took him up on his challenge and got all the answers correct. Yes, I do understand the A.E. map, and I am a Civil Engineer who makes maps and understands the UTM, geodesy and geomatics. I merely “copied and pasted” answers from allegedly authoritative forums, rather than provide answers using my own words. He would not be able to argue with correct answers.

Then I issued him a challenge of my own, to which he failed to answer correctly. In my silence, and probably as a result of his lack of knowledge of real geodesy and cosmology, he resorted to ad hominem attacks and name calling. Then he took the evidence of our conversation down. Spaceman, you are now famous for taking down the flat earthers’ main weapon, the Azimuthal Equidistant map—and I salute you for that. However, you will also be infamous for your unfounded attacks, your vicious character by attacking someone who did not respond in kind in the face of insults and attacks, your deception, and your cowardice too!

Luke 8:17 says, “For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hidden, that shall not be known and come to light.”

Okay, I will now respond to some of the posters’ comments. Please note that I do not intend this as attacking anyone, merely responding to alleged unanswerable challenges and misinformation. I will gladly communicate with anyone who wishes to do so with me. However, be advised that I will only do so with sincere and polite inquirers.

Ka rol
Yes they should...but they show up, give a down thumb and never comment...obviously it leaves them speechless...lol

Cal Piso
I am but one, but I have spoken.

Spaceman
The flatties seem to be scared to comment...speechless maybe...lol

Cal Piso
I am sure you wish I hadn’t commented now.

Michal Barc
Of course, there isn't any working map for both models (globe and FE). We know nothing about the shape of our World.

Cal Piso
Actually there is a working map for both models. But it is not the A.E. map. The earth is both concave and flat, but it is not a disk.

Musclecar rocklover
LSC has uploaded it ..plenty of thumbs down also ..the Fetters are silent ..i can almost hear all there collective cogs turning on how they can get out of this ..fetters gvmnt paid leaders will be having a board meeting about it lol ..hows this for a hot potato boys !!

Cal Piso
No the fetters are NOT silent!! Our free speech is just being suppressed by one deluded globehead. And you are damn right that this is a hot potato for the flat-disk earth earthers. Actually, it is a hot potato for the concave earthers too. Please check out my posts on Steven Christopher’s concave earth forum. Evidently he didn’t want the truth either that the earth is both flat and concave. At least he had the balls and good character to leave my posts up there!

David Ridlen
“But the flat Earth map GROSSLY distorts geography…” TRUE (Cal Piso)

“But the well-known scale of all continents are perfectly represented on a GLOBE. The reason it is geometrically impossible to preserve known dimensions on a flat map is because Earth is a SPHEROID” NOT TRUE (Cal Piso)

Gerard Frensen
This is a great video, telling exactly what it is. Not one flattie will like it, but they will not accept it either, they just cant accept the truth!

Cal Piso
“They just cant accept the truth.” Really? Maybe most flat earthers, but not me. My question to you is, ‘Can you accept the truth?’

Endless void
Amazing video :D One thing flat earthers forget is that these maps are all projections of a sphere…

Cal Piso
A concave earth sphere that is.

Larry Koehn
This video should kill the flat earth map bullshit. FEs totally got it WRONG in their interpretation of how this map is used.

Cal Piso
I hope it does kill all the flat-disk earth bullshit. What the flat earth community got wrong in general is that the earth is NOT a flat disk. They did get the flat part right, but virtually no one understands how the earth can be both flat and concave at the same time. However, on the other hand, what the concave earth community got wrong is that the earth CAN be considered flat at the same time. Note my explanation below.

Mr Murdoch yesss
Don't hold your breath. Flatties have a nearly violent aversion to the truth.

Cal Piso
Perhaps most flat earthers, but again my question to you is, “Can you handle the truth that the earth is both concave and flat?”

Roompainter
Yes, I am convinced this will sway them all for sure, no doubt they are complete moronic idiots. They'd have to be pure imbeciles not to see your undeniable proof of a Globe right here.

Cal Piso
Your non sequitur and leap in logic astounds me sir. A disproof of a flat-disk earth does not proof of a globe earth make! And would you be able to carry on a rational discussion with someone who disagrees with you without resorting to insults?

Gordon Brooks
The Gleason map was based on a projection method that had already been around for more than 600 years. This map is proof of nothing, and certainly wasn't put out by Gleason as having anything to do with a flat Earth. It was a timekeeping aid at a time when time zones were new, and still somewhat fluid. As for the ancients, I don't know that we know that so many civilizations considered the world flat. The ancient Greeks surely did not, and I don't think any society with a large seafaring contingent would have. The only "proofs" I see against curvature is a bunch of badly designed experiments, really bad optics, and reposts of a news report about the Chicago skyline. I'm tired of rehashing this.

Cal Piso
Well said. You are one of the only level-headed posters! Good for you!

Now for the correct answers to my challenge:

And here is my challenge to you. (1) What is the true shape of the earth? (2) How can the earth be considered flat and yet have spherical surface distances? (3) Who was the founder of this concept?

1. It is a concave hollow earth as the Lord Steven Christopher describes.
2. This from Ernst Barthel, Die Erde als Totalebene. Hyperbolische Raumtheorie mit einer Voruntersuchung über die Kegelschnitte -- The Earth as a totally Flat Plane: Hyperbolic Theory of Space with a Preliminary Study of Conic Sections Chapter VII, p. 81.

If one allows the radius of an ellipsoid to incrementally increase, so that it eventually reaches a value of ∞, the surface of the ellipsoid passes into an absolutely flat hyperboloid. Now this value of ∞ is different from the endlessness of imaginative forms, but as a qualitative crossover is in reality accessible. A hyperboloid has no center, or two equal "midpoint analogies," but one on each surface side. By looking at the earth as a "very big ball", one overlooks the fact that there is a mathematical relationship in which the "very large ball" is no longer an ellipsoid, but just the contrary, a "hyperboloid per se" without points, the outside surface of which could be connected by straight-lines. And that the earth's surface represents precisely this threshold value. [Translation by Cal Piso]
fsr.boards.net/post/3903

3. Ernst Philipp Barthel (17 October 1890 in Schiltigheim – 16 February 1953 in Oberkirch (Baden) was an Alsatian philosopher, mathematician and inventor. In the 1920s and 1930s he taught as a private lecturer of philosophy at the University of Cologne. From 1924 on Barthel edited the magazine Antäus. Blätter für neues Wirklichkeitsdenken (Antaeus. Journal for new Reality Thinking), which served as the organ of the Gesellschaft für Lebensphilosophie (Society for Life Philosophy) founded by him in Cologne. Barthel maintained philosophical friendships with his compatriots Albert Schweitzer and Friedrich Lienhard.
fsr.boards.net/post/2942
fsr.boards.net/post/3028
fsr.boards.net/post/3074

Let us hope and pray that this will become common knowledge, that the rifts between various earth models will be healed, that the conspirators will be confounded, and that Arthur Schopenhauer’s words will ALL be fulfilled.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
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Re: Flat Earth 'MAP' IS JUST AN AZIMUTHAL PROJECTION. FLAT EARTH DEBUNKED.

Steve
Administrator
why bring your laundry here? you only generate confusion and fighting. why? because you like to pride yourself on saying it is both concave and flat. you can say it *appears* flat at short distances but is actually spherical concave, but since you like your pride, you cause division. Please don't comment here anymore about your silly bi-ness.
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schizophrenic??

IrOnMaN
Banned User
In reply to this post by Cal
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Re: schizophrenic??

Ozymandias
Do you think he's a clever Troll..?
Oxymoronic I know, but so is Military intelligence..